Why it's time to ditch performance reviews
From ditching outdated performance reviews and building motivating work cultures to mastering the art of hiring and embracing attrition as a catalyst for positive change.
In this episode of the HR Leaders podcast, join Tami Rosen, Chief People Officer at Pagaya as she discusses the secrets to revolutionizing HR practices.
From ditching outdated performance reviews and building motivating work cultures to mastering the art of hiring and embracing attrition as a catalyst for positive change.
Episode Highlights:
Why attrition isn't a dirty word
What the future HR function looks like
Why It’s time to ditch performance reviews
How to build work cultures that actually motivate people
Why so many organizations are bad at hiring and how to do it better.
Discover what emotional salary means – and how you can motivate employees beyond pay.
Great recognition is more than just a thank you program. By leveraging frequent and meaningful recognition, Achievers drives business results that matter to organizations like retention, productivity, and engagement. Our platform makes it easy for employees to recognize each other anywhere, whether in-office, remote, or on-the-go.
The Achievers Workforce Institute reveals that two-thirds of employees have one foot out the door in 2024. The top reason for job hunting? Better compensation. But money isn’t the whole story. Employees are seeking not only monetary salary, but emotional salary too.
🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript
Tami Rosen 0:00
As leaders it's too confusing for us and that's why I say kill it, get rid of it. There is a place for evaluation which is a cornerstone of what we're talking about. But what I think more importantly we need is it has to be about learning and start with learning and design it differently around learning what is learning, and I know everyone's gonna say, Oh, I got it. It's about acquiring skills, knowledge and experiences in school, we're taught to memorise that recite it back on a tap that doesn't help us learn. That just gives us facts, right? So you need to acquire it and then you have to apply it
Chris Rainey 0:34
I have one. Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast and today's episode, I'm joined by Tammy Rosen, who's the Chief People Officer at pergola. During the episode, Tammy shares why it's time to ditch performance reviews, how to build work cultures that actually motivate people, why so many organisations are bad at hiring and how to do it better, and what the HR function of the future is going to look like. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Tommy, welcome to the show. How are you?
Tami Rosen 1:10
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Chris Rainey 1:13
Nice to see you again. Where are you joining us from? I should ask that we've got some read like a really cool view behind you.
Tami Rosen 1:17
Yes, I'm joining from my New York office for pagoda technologies
Chris Rainey 1:22
a nice before jumping in like, firstly, you're always a lot of fun. So I'm excited to the episode. But tell everyone a bit more about your background and journey to where we are now. And also a little bit about the business in case people aren't aware of it.
Tami Rosen 1:34
Of course, of course. So by way of background, I've spent the last 25 years in the people space and I like to call it the people space versus the Human Resources space or sound. So I don't know. But I call it the people space. And I've worked across SAS, internet, tech, finance, FinTech, and even self driving across fortune one hundreds, across startups, scaling companies, small, big, public and private, and mostly in the people space. So you probably would say, Well, how'd you get into this? Well, I fell into it. I started out I was pre law out of college, worked for the public defender during college and realised very quickly, that wasn't going to be what I wanted to do. So I ended up like anybody else looking for a job and fell into banking. And now West Bank in a loan training officer programme for like 18 months, which led to about three years of working at NatWest realising very quickly, I loved talking to all the actual business owners and helping them build their businesses. And I enjoyed the the quantitative side of it, but didn't want to be sitting in a cube, just crunching numbers. And, and through that experience, it was kind of like giving me sort of those breadcrumbs of what I like and don't like. And I started exploring opportunities, and accidentally went to meet a friend for an interview at a recruiting firm. And they started interviewing me in the conference room in the waiting room. And next thing I know, they offered me a job to be a technical recruiter on Wall Street. And I was like, this sounds interesting. So I took the leap. And shockingly, went from banking to recruiting. And that's kind of what set me on my path. And through that, I realised very quickly, I enjoyed helping people find their next opportunity. I didn't enjoy having to do it, because that was what would get me paid. I enjoyed helping give advice and career advice. And that's when I decided I can do this better and started on my own. And but I needed money. And I needed a partner at least that's what I thought. So I went to Goldman as a contract recruiter in technology, one of the first technical recruiters in the division. And, and that's how I set my pass on that was like the beginning of my finding what I loved and given me purpose and meaning. Amazing,
Chris Rainey 3:46
I love that and I loved. Because a lot of people feel like when we come out of school, we have to like, we're gonna do this. And you know, you end up finding out like you did, actually, this is not really what I thought it would be. And it's through like tasting and experiencing different things, you then realise, okay, this is what I like, right? I didn't think I'd be doing this, or my friends or family still don't know what I do for a living, I try to explain to like, wait, you sit in a chair, you have really good conversations, and you get paid for that. And it's in HR. So I love that and I love obviously, you know, recruitment is always is a gateway for many leaders in into the into the HR space, but I love the fact that you also mentioned that you have the human side. But now you're also to combat you're also able to combine that with the quantitative side and the technology piece. Now that's a great match in order to be a success. Successful CHRO CPO as you as you'd like to say, you need those two blends, right? Absolutely.
Tami Rosen 4:41
And that's really you know, those first parts of my career was really finding that purpose in meeting and then the second part was really mastering that craft. And that's what I did at my golden years was really master the craft of HR through a lot of different places. I was there 17 years and worked across many different things, both functions. And, and also divisions and, and then that's where it took me to take the risk of sort of taking my phase three, going out west, working for Apple, and then working for many startups. And then obviously convenient today where I sit at a Gaya, which wasn't in the cards for me to come to it actually was an accident, I was looking actually to retire. And if I give back to the industry from the outside going in, and and instead of on the inside out, and and that's where I found this interesting founder through a colleague of mine that worked and worked with me a Gold member was on the board. And we spoke for about six months. And I basically was like, No, I don't want to go back and I want to retire, I want to go on boards I want to teach, I wanna write I want to help the industry elevate the industry. And then I said I'd be an advisor. And that advisory lasted one week on the job. And three plus years later, I'm a failed, entrepreneur failed lawyer failed retirement
Chris Rainey 5:59
that way. My life? Yeah, I feel like we need to re define the word retirement because I can't even imagine you being retired, or your version of retired immediately was more work across multiple things.
Tami Rosen 6:16
It's so funny, you say that because my kids and my husband said the same thing because I literally retired for a couple of months. And about the same. Yes, it was about the same time as Tom Brady retired. And, and I will tell you the funny story that happened, it was like the end of the year of 2020. And I'm like, Yes, I'm definitely gonna be retired January, February, it's gonna you know, I'm excited to move to all my little projects. And my kids, like, you're so much more busy than you are when you were working. We got even better so then then the offer comes in from a Gaya and, and I'm like, I think I gotta take this as you know, to do this, and my kids. And I said, isn't it, I said, I'm gonna just do it. I'll do it as an advisory thing. You won't turn into anything. And then when I converted over to employ a week or two after my kids were like, Mom, you're sitting there saying, How could Tom Brady actually go back in after retiring? Look at yourself? You can't? And I said the fact that my kids were comparing me to Tom Brady was just that I was happy. Yeah, forget
Chris Rainey 7:15
everything else. That's, and that's a story that you and the kids are always going to remember as well. Right? That's gonna be one of those things. You tell it like family dinners in the future. Remember that time? as well? Yeah, I can't imagine the amount of energy and we don't even know each other that well, but just from speaking to you have conversations about energy and passion that you have, I can't even imagine you, you I think you'll drive yourself and their family crazy. If you actually retired, I think I think I think I'm scared that I'm gonna do that as well. But whenever my wife thinks about me retirement, she's like, you're gonna go crazy. You're gonna drive me crazy. You'll drive Robin crazy. You need something to focus your energy to, to want a little bit about your business, just in case they aren't sure. Yeah,
Tami Rosen 7:55
absolutely don't want to neglect that. So Gaia is a b2b to see financial technology company and were founded on this amazing mission to make financial opportunities more accessible to more people. And we do that by innovating the traditional underwriting systems and leveraging AI capabilities and data. So what does this really mean? It's kind of like, if you're a borrower, and you go into your lender of choice, and you want to get a loan, a lot of times, you don't even realise that you're getting turned down for maybe the wrong reasons, and will sit behind those lenders, or maybe it's a dealership, or maybe it's a buy now pay later marketplace, whatever. And when you get it, you don't even realise that the company that you want to say no, for a variety of reasons, it comes into our system, and we see a broader picture of you and we say yes, and then you get that loan as if you got it from your, your, you know, Lender of choice. And what the great part about it is then that lender now can give reach more customers, which they all desire to do. We support it on the back end, and the customer gets a loan, the partner gets a new customer. And because we have this unique of front funding model, the institutional investors that fund the loans get access to this unique set of investing assets. So it's a win win win. And through the whole time that I've you know, been here we've seen over 1.1 trillion loans go through our system, which allows applications that is which really enhances our AI capabilities to really extend and understand consumer behaviour at a
Chris Rainey 9:23
greater level. Yeah, is the AI helping you kind of identify things like like bias for like underrepresented groups and stuff like that? I don't know a lot about it. So.
Tami Rosen 9:33
Absolutely, absolutely. And what it actually is doing, and we have a whole lot of work that my colleague, Leslie Gillen, who's our growth officer has been really focused on is really this financial inclusion data and showing that we're reaching more blacks and Latin X in the US as well as you know, one and two loans are going to women. So that is actually incredible what we've been able to do and we're outperforming what banks can do themselves or what lenders can do themselves and that's why they want to partner with us. because we're able to get them more customers in a way that allows them to bring them into their ecosystem, get their their FICO scores up and be able to provide more other more and other products to them.
Chris Rainey 10:12
Wow, that's really amazing, I can see what attracted you to a role now. You know, it's not just finances actually truly making a difference to people's lives that perhaps wouldn't be able to get that house, for example, or get that loan for medical reasons, whatever it may be. Well, it's putting everyone on the 11th level playing field. Exactly.
Tami Rosen 10:31
And honestly, it did speak to me. And when I joined, I was the first C suite at paga. And I help to kind of build and scale this thing from, you know, our spec announcement to going public. And what's been the most rewarding is seeing how much when I joined, we had maybe one or two partners, we now have 29. And we're seeing just the impact that we can have for people to be able to get access to the credit, they desire to live the lives they want to have amazing
Chris Rainey 10:58
use, you're like, Chris, it's time to replace performance of user something better. We've heard this before, right? We've heard quite a few different takes on this. It's not a new topic to discuss. But I'd love to hear your take on this. Well,
Tami Rosen 11:11
you said replaced, I almost think they're dead and they should be killed. So I'm gonna go a little stronger than you know, I think I think the way we think about them, it's just all wrong. And you know, it's funny as I thought about this problem, because you're right, people have made tweaks and changes over the years, it's, you have to go back to why were they created? And what do they serve. And if you look back in time, they were created actually, in the industrial era after World War One. And they were taken from the military and the military used this sense of a performance review, to decide if someone should be transferred should be terminated or should be promoted. And that got into industry. And we sort of just adopted it as is, regardless of industry and being in the military, very different types of environments. And they largely, like you said, have not changed even though they've had some tweaks, people have moved conversations around, ratings, no ratings, 360s, no, 360s. But everybody is still trying to figure out what to do with them, because they have too many outcomes. It's whether you get paid, whether you get promoted, whether there's a compliance thing, and you either you're, you know, that's embedded in there that has to happen. And those are muddying the purpose of why you need a performance review. Why do you need a performance review, you need it to kind of set where somebody is and how they're doing and then also to help them grow. And those two things get muddied when pay performance and compliance are sort of the the outcomes, because as leaders, we it's too confusing for us. So I think we need to flip it on its head. That's why I say kill it, get rid of it, there is a place for evaluation, which is a cornerstone of what we're talking about. But But what I think more importantly, we need is it has to be about learning, and start with learning and design it differently around learning. What is learning? And I know everyone is gonna say, Oh, I got it. It's about acquiring skills, knowledge and experiences. Well, yeah, but in in school, we're taught to memorise that and to like, recite it back on a test, that doesn't help us learn, that just gives us facts, right. So you need to acquire it, and then you have to apply it. And if you're going to do apply it, that's what learning really is. And in the workplace, it's about acquiring all of these skills, knowledge and experiences, and then apply it to those new and different situations that make better outcomes. And so we should stop managing performance and start motivating performance by looking at learning first, and you have to create those systems around it. So to give you an example, at pakai, what we did is we said, we're going to have something called the continuous learning cycle, centred around learning. What is that about? There are four questions and very simple. And employee goes in and says, What have I accomplished over the first three to six months? I've been here? What have I learned both successes and failures through that time? What am I going to do in the next three to six months? And what support and help do I need from Gaia and my manager to do that, and then a manager, employee writes reflection manager writes reflection, that all happens in all two to three weeks. And conversations happen. By the fourth week, we get 100% of people completing their self reflections, and everybody gets a conversation. I'm not and and the crazy part about it. We've now done this over four or five cycles, we have 75% of people saying they look forward to the next one, and that they actually have learned something new and it's made them more impactful and better at their jobs. Now the hardest part of this learning is hard. Right? We all think it's easy. Yeah. I look at it in the equation of like, if I'm a skier and now you're asking me to be a snowboarder. That's a really different thing. Some of the things principal Is that the same, some of the some of the terrain is the same, but the way you're doing is different. And you're gonna have to get a little humbled and may take you a while to be an expert. Right. And that's what we're trying to teach up a guy is that learning is really what we're centering around, because learning makes you reach your potential greater and faster. And we talked about potential looking in the past, we have to talk about potential looking in the future.
Chris Rainey 15:24
Wow, I feel like you just did a really good TED talk, right. My head I was like, this is like amazing. And you can tell us I can tell I could see and feel and hear the passion. In everything you said. And I'm sure everyone listening to the same way. And great. I love the fact that we're you kept it really simple. The four questions the process over you said three weeks, right, was it? weeks as well? Why do I even start with my questions here? Why? I love the fact you gave the background as well. Right? Why do you think many people we listening novice, but why do you think we still continue to do it the same way?
Tami Rosen 16:11
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's because it's hard to change. It's hard to think differently about stuff and even coming to Puglia which, you know, we're in Israel, and we're in the US. And you were a mix of technology, people and finance people. And everyone's coming from different environments where performance reviews are just sort of the run of the mill. Right? And everybody wants them because they want to know, did I exceed? Did I not? What am I going to get paid? What am I going to get promoted all those things? And, and so people expect them. So I think that's one and even when it came to book, I had to try to design it. Everyone expected me to design something that would look like that. And there was a lot of resistance at first. But then when people realise that what a performance review does, is it's very anxiety provoking. I don't know. I mean, I'll ask you to look
Chris Rainey 17:03
for it. I'd never I'd never looked forward to it as the manager or the employee on either side of the spectrum, right? as well. So no, no, never. No, no, I was like, Oh, here we go. Yeah,
Tami Rosen 17:15
here we go. And honestly, it might be like fearing root canal, right? Like, you're just not sure it's gonna actually be something that's positive for you. And you don't know what surprises are going to be in there. And they're riddled with biases, whether it recency bias, or somebody sees something written in 360. And they need to use it in order to make sure that they don't pay you, or whatever it may be. There's always something in there, and you're not what you don't do in a review, because you have that anxiety, is you're not comfortable, and willing to share all the things that are going on and be honest. And in. And that's what I think, again, your question is why people don't move is because it's hard to change. And it's hard to go from what they expect to something where you're actually have to be vulnerable. You have to be honest, introspective, and you have to be willing to share where you've really fallen down, and also where you succeeded. Now, I'll ask you this, most people probably don't even know why they succeeded on something, it just ends. And to figure that out, and to replicate that. That's actually magic. So it's
Chris Rainey 18:22
so funny, you said that because as we're growing here at HR leaders, Shane and I are trying to map out our success of what made us successful in certain things, because we need to then share that with employees we're hiring right at the moment is lives in Shane's brain and lives in my brain. And to your point, we don't necessarily know the ingredients of why it's working. And when we sat down and trying to write the processes, and we're like, oh, this is really hard, like to actually replicate that because as you said, That's the magic, right? If you can, if you can encapsulate that and share that, as well. That's where it gets magical. I do want to ask, though, how did you overcome that? Both of the employees, but also did in other companies are seen as resistance from leadership who also have been have gone through that traditional performance review process? Yeah, yeah.
Tami Rosen 19:12
So look, I did try this out on another company before this, and it was very successful as well. partly what I think overcame it is just that when you are scaling as fast as we were as a company, and you wanted to get stuff going and you centre around learning, even as your culture, it was easy to kind of marry it together and say we'd have another process that would actually look at are you you know, a high medium low performer, are you high mean low potential, and looking at that way, and really doing more talent mapping and reviews which are much more effective, because you're having a several moments of these CLCs as I call them, plus, you're dealing with the day to day and then when you come in and have a talent conversation. As a leader, you can really see your full chessboard Word and think about how you're motivating their performance, moving them into opportunities, getting them promoted, making sure that their impact is being felt and known and that they're in the right places to do that, or even to help course correct when they make those mistakes. And you start to value things differently. You value people's learning agility over what they committed alone, right? So yes, they had impact, but they also have learning agility, which then shows they have greater potential to do more things and to have greater impact at your company in the future.
Chris Rainey 20:30
What about how did you How are you capturing this information, in order to have the data and to measure etc? Yeah,
Tami Rosen 20:38
so we, we use like, you know, a regular tool like anybody else, for capturing it so that it does live and breathe in a place. And then we also do surveys throughout the year during the for managers and employees on the experiences they're having. What we have seen is that it's not just about capturing the data, we're seeing it become a way of working. So now the CLC is something that I do with you as my employee. And and then you see it the opposite managers asking employees, like in the same way, how they're doing. And then you're also seeing when two teams are doing a big project together, and maybe something doesn't work they do they use the CLC method to kind of think about it, what are we committing to what have we not done? Well, what have we done well, why and how we can help each other so that the next six months that we have these goals, we're going to make sure we achieve them greater. So you're starting to see it's become a way of working. And I see for myself, like I've been, you know, I told you, I did not intend to come to papaya, it has been the best experience for me in the last decade, joining and I'm forever grateful. And one of the reasons is the learning that I've had personally, and usually at my level, I'm not going to be expected to learn as much I'm expected to teach. And even my founder and others who I work with, are helping me grow and learn as well. And as a result, I've evolved and, and have had greater impact as a result, too.
Chris Rainey 22:03
So it's been really become part of the culture. Right? When people join the business, this is how we do it. This is how things get done. Like, this is how we do it. Right. It's kind of permeating throughout your entire organisation, as well, I love that. Do you link this to leaders and managers performance? Anyway, for accountability, just out of curiosity,
Tami Rosen 22:25
you know, so no, not not explicitly. And I think part of that is we want people to do it, not because they're being measured to do it, but because it's the right thing to do. And, and we're seeing people do that, I mean, every leader looks forward to doing their CLCs. And the employees do as well. Because there are conversations that are real conversations that you're having with someone with someone genuinely wanting to help you be better. And, and, you know, that doesn't mean those conversations are always easy. Because when you're exploring why you failed, or even why you succeed, and you want to replicate the success and not do the failure, it takes taking off the blind spots that you have, and really opening up your horizon and trying things out. So, you know, that's something people have to be ready for. And not everybody wants to be in a learning environment. We'll be clear about that. And some of these CLCs have evoked people saying, You know what, guys, not right for me. And that's okay. Because if you want to do what you've always done, and that's, and we want you to do more, let's have an honest conversation about it. Fair
Chris Rainey 23:29
enough. Yeah. I love that radical candour. Effectively, effectively, yeah, pretty much. I know, find something you also super passionate about. And this kind of links to what we're talking about really is building work cultures that actually motivate people. Could you share more of what you actually mean by that?
Tami Rosen 23:46
Yeah, you know, coming off of COVID. And watching everybody quickly jump to working remotely. And not thinking about how you work, I think is one of the big reasons why you see a lot of companies now reversing their, their location policy. And I call it a location policy. Because it really that's all it is. If you really want to create culture, that motivate people, you have to start with how people work regardless of location, and then create those dynamics, whether it's through asynchronous synchronous work, that's remote, and then those that's in in, in person. And I think we cannot underestimate how important it is to connect with people and to be in person. And when you take that out of the equation, you lose something, and you have to be conscious of what you're losing and know your culture, and what's important in that culture to have it so some companies can be fully remote, and then figure out how they work. If that works for how they want to get work done, and they've been intentional about it. And others have to have more of a hybrid. And then there's some that you know, are fully in office and we're Regardless of that location, it's those norms underlying that help. And why I talk a lot about cultures of learning is because I think that's what really builds that motivation for people. Because people want to be progressing their career, they want to show growth, and you can't have growth. If it's just a step function and a promotion scale, you have to have growth, that you're actually becoming an expert at something and giving back and making an impact and really delivering.
Chris Rainey 25:26
Yeah, and I agree. And I think companies just, I don't think they're making decisions out of data driven decisions. They're making kind of fear based decisions in many ways. Like they feel like their lack of control, if that makes sense, as well. And it's not a not footnote, because it's the right thing to do. Yeah,
Tami Rosen 25:49
I'll add one thing to this is the challenge with building work cultures is that we don't look at it as a strategy that's important to driving the business outcome. And it has to be because people strategy and culture is your business strategy. And if you miss those two things, and you think they're like the afterthoughts, you'll be sorely mistaken. And, and I fundamentally believe this, that, you know, I talked to so many CEOs over my career. And I'd ask them, Where would you put your people strategy in relation to all the other things that you're doing all your other goals and other outcomes? And typically, they weren't in the top five? Or in the top? 10? It wasn't, it was? No, and and I think it was shocking to me, because I thought people really didn't realise that without people, you don't have a company. We're not all chat. GPT. Right. Maybe that'll be the future, but it's not now. So how do you how do we think about what makes us unique as humans and realise that that's what's making your company great having the right people in the right place at the right time with the right combination? Like think about it, sports teams are the best to look at this, where they're winning, it's when they they have this like synergy. And they're connected in a way regardless of their stature or who they are or their hero or not a hero, they're working together. And I you know, I live both in New York and California. So if I look at, you know, the Golden State Warriors, they have all the stars on the team, but they can't win. And then you look at the New York Knicks, who have up and coming stars, who are all playing together, and they're starting to win. And, and that's what I think makes people strategy. So important. It's not just about winning the game. It's about winning the long term mission for your company. And you have to continually think about do you have the right people in the right places with the right combinations to deliver that?
Chris Rainey 27:50
Yeah, no, I cool analogy. Actually, I was thinking, while you're saying that as well, from a office point of view, like the best team isn't the one that's got the best football stadium. Again, right, it's about the people on the pitch on the field, that they're the ones that meet when it's not about that's not that's why you're a billion dollar sports franchise, not because you're selling tickets, not because you're stadia not because I'm gonna be ours, but because of the people that go out there on the pitch and play the game together. And
Tami Rosen 28:19
if they're doing it out of the love of the craft, and that they're selfless, and they're like, I call that the missionary person, the person that's really after the mission, and they're not worrying about, did I get paid this year this or did I get this promotion? Or do I have this? They worry about? What can what is the best use for me for the company to make the best difference versus the other side when you get too many mercenaries? And that's what happens in sports. When they get the big deals and they get the big marketing campaigns. They then become mee, mee, mee, Mee Mee, and it's not about the team, the franchise and and long term, and same things happens in companies all the time.
Chris Rainey 28:58
Yeah, well, on that point, and that leads us quite, quite nice to our next question. Why are so many organisations bad at hiring? It's a good segue from there.
Tami Rosen 29:09
Great. Well, you know, I think we might need a whole other podcast on this one, because there's so much to say. But But honestly, the reason is, most people think they're good interviewers. And most people think they can assess talent because they've done the job. And the answer, and that's not accurate. It's a craft. Interviewing is a craft. And, and you have to really sit and understand it. You know, most people do 30 to 45 minute interviews. And unfortunately, they don't realise they're relying on instinct and intuition, which is fully based on their own biases on how they see the world. And do I like or dislike the person is what they come out with versus is this person capable and going to be successful at the company? And so I think they're bad at hiring because we're confusing. Trying to get someone I want to enjoy working with versus someone who's capable and and can have the impact we need. Eat. And I offer some suggestions here, which is yes, you have to assess skills and capabilities that's like table stakes. But then you have to really go into that behaviour. And everyone say, oh, behavioural interviewing, or the WHO method, whatever, whatever choice you have great, but making sure you have multiple examples of seeing that behaviour, not just the one someone prepared for you, and really thinking about how you put that into action. And it's not just a q&a session, but maybe it's a whiteboarding session, or it's, it's a practical that you give someone they come back to. And then you really have to take the third part is really about assessing culture. So what is skills and capabilities? Next is understanding the behaviours and how they like to work, and can that work with you? And then the third is the culture in which they work best in? And can they work in the culture that you have? I've made several mistakes in my career taking jobs where I didn't really assess the culture, sometimes I've been lucky, it worked really well for me, and sometimes it wasn't. And, and so I even think, as an employee, looking for that next job, you also have to be once you get to that level, ask those questions about the culture, because that's going to make or break whether you can succeed, you can be the best trader, the best salesperson sourcing the best HR person, but in that environment, you may not be able to work.
Chris Rainey 31:17
Yeah, have you made this have you made this a consistent process, and given your manager the tools to make this work in your organisation? You
Tami Rosen 31:26
know, we're scaling so fast, and we've been in, you know, we're an eight year old company, almost eight year old company, and I've been here three years, I would say we're still at it, this is this is not something that you can perfect overnight. Because everyone's knee jerk reaction is to hire the person they know, which usually is the person that looks like them. And, and it and you have to really be at it. Most people know at my company, I'm very focused on this, always trying to make sure we have a lot of different people in the interview process. We have a lot of people different interviewers interviewees, making sure we're looking across, we're not making just the one and done conversation, which happens often I know this person at this company, so let me bring them you have to kind of push yourself to not do that sometimes, and really look at who's going to be the right person right now for this role. And who really fits in our culture and why
Chris Rainey 32:16
Yeah, it's so easy to fall into that habit, right? Because it takes more work to be intentional about doing that, as well, especially when you're under pressure to deliver yourself your team. You're like, you know, like, I just need to get this done. And then you just make that decision based on bias. And someone that looks like me, I relate to or I used to work with them. So let's do that. It's harder, actually, to be more intentional and do it the right way. Yeah. What about the future at a function? You've been in it for a long time, right? We've discussed that. What do you think the future of the HR function will look like?
Tami Rosen 32:52
Well, first, I'd love to find a new name. I think human resources used to be super capital than it was personnel. I mean, like all these different crazy names that really, at the end of the day, it's about people. And I think we need a better way of calling what the function is and elevating it to a place where people see it's as critical, like I said, as the business strategy that you have, or the product strategy you have. So first, I would say HR is ruled with a couple of different things. One is we have so much compliance risk and and an operations that have to happen, which are just like you can't get wrong, making sure someone gets paid makes it so someone gets transferred making all these different things, you have to just do that. And those operational aspects are very much similar to some of the other GNA functions. So I would see trying to figure out more of a shared services across all of that, which really takes the operational aspect out of it, and then create a second component, which is really more of these kind of pods of, of value, add relationship driven, coaching type roles. We call them business partners today, but I don't think I think they're riddled with so much process and procedure that they can actually get in and really help with, you know, really fostering that environment of learning and growth that is necessary and creating those right teams with the right org structures to deliver on whatever comes your way, whether you're having market challenges, or its internal company challenges or whatnot. So I would see trying to separate out the operational component and kind of marry it with some of the other functions that have high operational components. And then really think about the strategy part and where you can actually have the most impact, because it's those one to one conversations that go a long way more more than you know whether or not you know, people got to the right place at the right time.
Chris Rainey 34:50
We posted a clip yesterday with a CPA that came on the show and she and I asked a similar question and she said, Chris was set up for failure to fail in most cases. because we've got those two areas that you're talking about, and you're massively understaffed, but I'm supposed to be able to get all of that stuff right over here, whilst at the same time being future focused strategic partnering in the business, all the things you're talking about, and you just kind of pulled in two different directions, and then you're not doing an average job at both as well. Do you agree with that statement?
Tami Rosen 35:24
I do. And I think one of the biggest challenges, there's still a quite a stigma about HR, who go to HR, right. You know, there's, it's always bad and that stigma is problematic. I mean, I tell the story that one time I was vacationing with my family, and I was wearing one of the shirts of the company I was working at, and a gentleman came up to me and said, Hey, what do you do at this company? Is that your company? I said, Yeah, it's one of the companies I worked for. And he's like, What do you do? And I said, Well, he's like, actually know what, what does the company do? So I went on what the company does, why, why it matters, blah, blah, blah. We talked for like, 15 minutes about the company and its mission. And he said, What are you the Chief Product Officer of the company? And I said, No, actually, but I am a CPO. And he looks at me, and he looks at me goes, Oh, wow. And you actually are intelligent.
Chris Rainey 36:17
And I was like, Oh, my God. I was like,
Tami Rosen 36:21
and you actually know your business? And you're actually like, wow, and he was, like, confused. And and I was then confused, because I'm like, is this a compliment? Or is this not a compliment? And it was really not. And, and what really dawned on me from that moment, is that there's still this stigma about being in HR. And frankly, we we have to get that changed. And that's why it's about how people is our product that we are delivering to the organisation to make the impact they need to deliver on their business strategy that's out there. And we need more people in the HR function that really think about business, how quantitative skills qualitative skills, relationship skills, communication skills, like you have to have it all. And, and I think we have to upskill ourselves in order to be able to meet that demand.
Chris Rainey 37:10
Yeah. And firstly, I currently agree with everything, you're saying, I love the story, as well, because we still do have that issue. It's also one of reasons why, you know, seven, eight years ago, I started to show because I was having these crazy, like, these amazing conversations with leaders like yourself, and hearing all of the great work that's happening. And then I can see the perception of hrs highlight, it doesn't match up. Like, I don't think people are really aware of what's actually happening and the great work that's being done, and that's why I started destroying the first place to share the stories and the work that's happening. And even my friends and family when they're like, Wow, I didn't realise that, Chris. I'm like, Yeah, because I did a video I never released it. Actually, I should release it one day, where I went out on the streets, and I asked the average worker, what does their HR team do? And it was just, it was just awful. I didn't want to post it because I felt like I was just making it worse, where literally, I went to Canary Wharf, the Financial District in the UK, I asked like people as to home from the train station, hey, what was the role of HR and it was all the things you can imagine hiring, firing compliance to the debit tend to be my friend, but they're not. And they go tell my boss, like all the things and I was like, I can't post this on LinkedIn, because like, this is just gonna do more damage. Doing good, but because I thought I was gonna get at least a couple people that are like, you know, given me some really cool answers, as well. But anyways, but listen, at the time, I could talk to you forever. I honestly, I love your passion for what you do. And you you said earlier, when you retire, you want to give back to the profession in maybe like a teaching capacity. I can say without a shadow of a doubt. You'd be amazing at that. Just having you on the show today, as well as some of the examples you've shared. The way in which you shared is really really insightful. And I wish you all the best until next week.
Tami Rosen 39:00
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a fun conversation, and I agree we probably can talk forever. Celia
Chris Rainey 39:05
thanks so much. Thank you
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